I should add that the result of the six-step progression I just documented is that so-call apologetics becomes an exercise in arguing about who is more offensive than whom. The pictures White posted are offensive, even if intended as humor. Before that time I was not really acquainted with any of the apologetics blogs on either side. What does is when it isnt intended as serious even by its author, and/or when it so overwhelms almost every conversation that they just dont go anywhere. Aug. 10, 6:22 pm Humility, gentleness, courtesy, charity, respect, equanimity, charity rejecting anything that smacks of superiority, ego, disdain, triumphalism, abusiveness, dismissiveness ah, theres an argument thats very, very hard to refute. That is, why would Catholic anybody (e.g., Catholic Answers, Jimmy Akin, or especially the Catholic Church) actually engage in such an act? Name Server: and, here, accuse Jimmy Akin and Crew that were the ones responsible for this act. Mark Kay, I seem to recall even Aristotle thinking circles in logic might be OK if they were small enough. I dont remotely claim to have walked it myself with any consistency. . Actually, Matthew, your comment doesnt hold much water. Perhaps you should consider these verses: I wont let the people in this com box color my judgments on the catholic faith because I still have respect for itbut i wonder when i see so called catholics acting so uuncharitable and rude . a faith that works Jimmy, please close the comments! The fulfilment of the law is love your neighbor as yourself. I suppose I should brush up on my regulations though, that or Mr. Akin should deal with the issues. Yes, I have heard some people report thinking to be painfully difficult. of Mapname.com customer 3 Is that Catholic teaching? 2. I am the LORD" (Leviticus 19:28). Anyone read the new reply from White? None of us hesitate to proclaim this from the treetops when given the chance, why not at least be concious of the fact we are all trying to attain some degree of mysticism. He (White) comes close to this when he says: God inspires, and the canon expresses the limitation of that action. However, his central argument is errant in that the infallible knowledge of the Canon (held by God in eternity) can neither proceed from or precede Scripture itself. Its a rebuttal of Whites book-length critique of the first edition of Geislers book. It took a while, but I found it: I really dont know how to respond to this one, as Im laughing a bit too hard. However, no matter how infallible God is, us men are fallible. after continuing to escalate when several people asked to tone this down, When I want your opinion, Ill go to Whites blog. We will never bludgeon the James Whites or the Steve Camps of the world into the Catholic Church with triumphalist rhetoric or withering sarcasm and, really, we arent trying to. Call me a liar, youd be right, any Christian would confess such a thing. Third, it actually produces a queasy feeling in my gut when I spend a couple of hours trying to put together a good, meaningful post, that expresses legitimate disappointment in the theocracy (definitely a theocracy) promoted by Rome, only to have it thrown off as utter nonsense. For that matter WHY would someone go through the bother?. You have no basis for assuming that someone here or at Catholic Answers is responsible for registering that domain and pointing it at catholic.com, but its implied by your comment. Well, thats true enough in its own way. Our Priest today gave a sermon where he was talking about the Protestants and how only through the Catholic church can one be saved, by no other means, and how the Protestants each stand up there each sunday and one man who was in many instances either elected or installed as a pastor by a community interprets for all what God thinks and what scripture says which is heresy. If you want to find the exact situation, go to Chapter 5, though I doubt many, if any, of you own the book. Dr. White does not look at debates as something won or lost. This might help. You can find him, as well as many from Apologia, serving on public sidewalks outside of abortion clinics and preaching the gospel publicly in multiple venues around the greater Phoenix area. So anyone who tries to portray critics of the Lordship Salvation So youre so close to White that he confides his motivation to you? As Ive stated previously: There is nothing wrong with Whites assertion that God would know what he wrote (or inspired to be written), and that if he chose to he could name them all. warning from God not to add or subtract from His Words. Funny. He can think youre going to hell and still treat you as decent human beings. Soon as White says Look, Im sorry Ill be cool with im. He blogs on apologetics, culture, humor and lots of stuff. As a Protestant, I use them all the time as references. Mary Kay: Name Server: Here I go, getting baited back in. It is wrong to do evil that good may come of it. Turn on the smoke evacuation fans and get back to the issues. CareBear, circumstances. The implication of moral equivalency is outrageous and disgusting. No one else can know infallibly know this canon outside of the authors attempt to comunicate it to othersEven those closest to the author cannot know with utter certainty whether the author has used anyone else in the writing process or borrowed from another sourceTherefore, the originator of a book has an infallible knowledge of the works, while anyone else has a mediated knowledge, dependent upon the honest and the integrity of the author and the authors desire to make the canon known to others. How can you stand to be so precious, Trixy? I cannot do more of an analysis here and certainly not a technical one without taking a lot more time (Im not waving my hands so much as saying that Da Rulz would not allowed such an The Acts of Solomon[3] Golly, Mary, we must be melodramatic for objecting to being equated with folks who murder victims of rape, because we object to a fellow assuming someone is a liar! Or did James White merely find a convenient way to win a debate without ever having to defend a word he says by posting these pictures and the other tactics he has relied on in his debate with Beckwith? Whose fruit is this squabbling between Jimmy and James? and the vitriol (no one can argue the level of hatred) expressed towards He (Dr Beckwith) repeatedly (two out of three aint bad) left his readers/listeners with the distinct impression that he had not read Trent until recently and insulted his former Lutheran professors by indicating they had led him to expect: to read this sort of horrible document, you know, requiring people to stick pins in their eyes, you know, and flagellate themselves, you know, I believe the problem has been Donald Casadonte Instead of getting a degree in VCR repair, you major in Scripture. Eric, The light heart was laughing. Engage my posts from 5 days ago and then well get to yours. But Greg, heres my inquiry to you. Period. You should, by your own authority (since you dont acknowledge that of the Church), re-consider all the books that are currently in the bible, but also, in addition, take up all those other books that the Catholic Church rejected time and again in the Councils of Rome (382 AD), Hippo (393 AD) and Carthage (397 AD). So he had totally drawn attention away from the fact that he could not answer the question. Id have to give the victory to Dr. White. Second, is it every Scripture is God-breathed or every God-breathed Scripture is Had to start of with a few minutes on the posthumously published book from Joseph Ratzinger. Jeremiah gee, the Angelwing Consperacy mustve hacked into Mr. Whites site and posted the pictures. That could describe you too Mary Kay. Mary is correct that if you had posted something specific, it would be easy to copy and paste, just as Ive done with your comments. From there, the posters here committed the category error of applying that likening to ALL Roman Catholics. Relationship implies that it goes both ways. By accepting Whites actions as the just due that is neither just nor due (unless you truly understand Gods intentions here), we rise above the muck and elicit the surprise of every mudskipper and bottom-dweller that never could. Or James White who was born several centuries later? Phoenix apologist, James White, became enraged, as the church was that of his daughter's and the man receiving the tattoo in the video was his son-in-law. Godwins Law is limited to comparisons with Nazis and Hitler. Clearly you do not know either Catholic theology or history if you liken it to Islam. Let us pray for each other! I never do, but then, like I said, Im not as apt to jump on the conspiracy train. God help him; his friends clearly arent going to do so. Thats not Ed youre seeing in the mirror. Mesmerized by the brilliance of the nightlight, I suppose. AOMIN App Unless it concerns history, which is my pet topic, then Im in there like a flash. Oh, and your most recent comment: The Book of the Wars of the Lord Esau I think the trademarked toy hasnt realized that the .org addy is an auto-forward to another site, and thus doesnt need to have the slightest relation to the site it forwards to. The conspiracy must be deeper then we think. I am a theorist I merely analyze humor he has to consider its impact. Roman Catholics differ on as many issues as Protestant Evangelicals do. Took some great Zoom calls today discussing the vine and the branches in John 15, MBTS, the Great Tradition, and Thomas (took a long time on this one), and then the Trinity, the Cross, inseparable operations, etc. I was addressing the Roman Catholic apologetics community. However, we can trust the Canon as written down at Nicea because of the authority given to the Church, by Jesus and through Peter. ^_^. Perhaps he actually shows those features you praise elsewhere, but in this matter, they are greatly lacking. OKay I do apologize for being a troll, by defintion I am one in this case. Kind of a DeVry Technical Institute for theology. I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpents cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. Recent Media All Some good people have wasted a lot of time on him. For one thing Im sure we Catholics agree with a whole lot of his beliefs on basic Christian truths and on many social issues. If you are in a church that uses multiple Bible versions, get out of Donate What is your criteria for accepting the books that comprise the New Testament, if you do not trust or acknowledge the authority of the Catholic Church that decided its Canon??? CareBear: ? The Chronicles of the Kings of Media and Persia[22] Expiration Date:04-Aug-2008 09:17:04 UTC (Actually said by an I dont think youll find a Catholic in the world whod defend that assertion. Ahhh sooooo. Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church (Matt. Appeals to emotion dont suit you well. I find it amusing that most, if not almost all of those accusing James White or wrongdoing are foregoining any possible transgression by Akin or any one of his cronies. Yet you characterize this as measured and fair, and mockery of it as sophmoric. Is the Roman Mass a Propitiatory Sacrifice? Blessed Redeemer Now, Mary, logic is uncharitable! Salvation and I absolutely DO believe that repentance is required for He has participated in outreach to various religious organizations nationwide and has even engaged in public debate against Atheism. John 6 Romans 14:13 is clear: Before not so much! Registrant City:Riverside Quite liberating, actually. 2) Some persons suggest that Mr. Whites manner of criticizing Dr. Beckwith is wanting in the Charity that he, as member and especially as a leader in the Christian church, is obliged to handle matters with. I will follow Christ, through His choice for the leader of His Church on earth, the Vicar of Christ, currently PBXVI. The images were speaking toward an analogous attitude; namely, a fomented zealotry fueled by uninformed passion (which his subsequent post substantiated). The evasion in the answer is obvious. and The Fatal Flaw. When did you authoritatively establish what His revelation is? Unfortunately, Jimmy Akin insisted on focusing on these issues and misdirect people way from the theological issues. Posted by: CareBear | Aug 10, 2007 10:18:26 AM White makes some sophisticated-looking objections about something one of his interlocutors has said or done. Ill admit theres nothing gnostic about *that*. I believe that makes you my sibling. It takes more than a few monkies to to consitute a cirus! Whose fruit is cavalierly dismissing a protest of injustice? I wonder if civility would be improved if we more folks posted under their real names. Im waiting. For instance, in this design, the red-coloured alpha symbol is adding a certain vibrance to the overall motif. Sacralists never tire of trying to recombine them, resulting in inquisitions and other holy wars of modern times. Jimmys analysis of Dr. SeanPatrickCornell. Only goes to show those making this assertion know bupkis about either Catholicism or Islam. Please dont post anonymously. Keep in mind that the Catholic Church is not a person, its the church founded by Christ. Of course the reverse can also be true: Holy Christians, holy Catholics are the only unanswerable argument for Christianity and the Catholic Church. He also leads Apologias ministry, End Abortion Now, whose goal is to criminalize and end abortion through the work of the local church and state legislation. Someone even went so far as to register his name jamesrwhite.org and then point the site to Catholic Answers. Office Hours Too many people throwing around the word gnostic here. What did you expect, applause? Bible Versions: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly (Parts 1 and 2) (28,3,4), Examining Muslim Apologetics (Part Two): Unusual Attacks on the Trinity, Examining Muslim Apologetics (Part One): The Bible Versus the Quran, Dangerous Airwaves: Harold Campings Call to Flee the Church, The Divine Sovereignty-Human Responsibility Debate (Part Two), The Divine Sovereignty-Human Responsibility Debate (Part One), Pro and Con: Two Journal Contributors Respond to the Joint Declaration of Justification by Ralph E. Mackenzie and James R. White, Beyond the Veil of Eternity: The Importance of Philippians 2:5-11 in Theology and Apologetics, Target, Bible: A Flood of Books Attack the Sufficiency of Scripture, Summary Critique: Jehovahs Witnesses Defended, The Jesus Seminar and the Gospel of Thomas: Courting the Media at the Cost of Truth, Effectively Sharing the Deity of Christ with Jehovahs Witnesses, Of Cities and Swords: The Impossible Task of Mormon Apologetics, Is Your Modern Translation Corrupt? I was raised Catholic but have been Protestant for over 30 years. What horrors are you referring to? Name Server:NS.DEWDESIGNS.COM Why do you think Jimmy has to blog on only serious matters? However, ask yourself this: What would your reaction be if one of us said Just read Jimmy Akins book, it has all the answers you need.? 1. 2. If youre tired of gnosis, youre simply tired of yourself. Jesus wants me to be rich. The Apostles were empowered by our Saviour to forgive sins Again, my bad for not crying wolf when a dog barks James White is an unstable individual. Again, these are only cursory thoughts Ill finish more when I get back from Mass. I am not easily shocked. If White were thinking rationally, he would see this. Esau, Soon as White says Look, Im sorry Ill be cool with im. Jonathan, that last little tidbit is an argumentum ad populum and should be recanted. But. He is very good at that. I am the vine, you are the branches. I think this will be one of the more clear-cut versions, with a few exceptions. Although I think that Mr. White could find a use for one if he had a packet of pins handy. What you did was vile, unacceptable, and childish. Jesus or Paul? Its the Vast Angelwing Conspiracy, Jeremiah! To infer such is illogical. Stubble, We can presume that he knew no love was lost between them. . Box 5121 28:18-20); by Baptism one is made a member of the Church: Matthew, sometimes, and you should know this from your own denominations experience, that it is hard to get the other side to realize how a given statement affects you. The only way you can defeat it is what you just did, dont engage it, but engage something that looks kind of like it or, in plainer terms, STRAW MAN. You, along with others on both sides of the Tiber, have steered the discussion to other theological areas. A few obseravations: I would label this domain registration either the work of someone trying to win, or someone trying to increase disagreement between Mr. Akin and Mr. White. if he repents doesnt seem to require us to forgive those who do not repent. Foxfier defies Aristotillean logic and that does it for me. Tattoos & Body Piercings THE OT: The Old Testament law commanded the Israelites, "Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. And Mark 11, If you hold ANYTHING against ANYONE, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins. There is one last thing I would like to note. Righteousness lifts up, exalts, a people, a nation. When one happens upon a URL that leads direcrtly to Catholic Answers, what is one to assume? Jimmy allows random people to post in his comboxes without requiring any sort of registration. And, every Christian, by definition of them being a Christian, would admit to being a liar. As I mentioned on this thread and on the Amazing. I was addressing the Roman Catholic apologetics community. Both the alpha and omega are quite prominently depicted with shades of red and some green streaks. That is a relationship of some form. I guess were all waiting for something. Does anyone else see the irony in the way these people are acting and the joke being made in the pictures? Relationship implies that it goes both ways. If you are wrong about Sola Scriptura, then you are in a state of rebellion against Jesus Christ. Before anyone knew the state of what God had done (canon mediated), God infallibly knew the current state and content of canon (infallible). On the contrary, the greater the outrage, the more delicious the cake. You have no basis for assuming that someone here or at Catholic Answers is responsible for registering that domain and pointing it at catholic.com, but its implied by your comment. For God, the divine Author of scripture, His knowledge of the canon never changes and thus the Canon cannot be a mere appendix that resulted due to causality. The King James Bible Given the evidence I see, so far, and without assuming a lack of charity on anyones part, this is how I would analyze Dr. Whites his attempt at humor: It is a classic example of a joke which is cognitively dissonant to a Catholic readership it has the form of a joke, but not its manner, for that audience. This is why we should call the canon an artifact of revelation: It is not itself and object of revelation, but comes into existence as a by-product of the action itself. Also: Yes, I know you are all very skilled at flipping this back in our direction. The person who About With James Renihan vs. Marcus Borg and John Dominic Crossan, With Geoff Volker vs. Robert Strimple and Gary Johnson, With Robert Zins vs. Scott Butler and Robert Sungenis, Islam and Christianity: A Matter of Denial in Answering Islam:Countering Terror with Truth. Am I close enough to him to be sure hes not just pretending? Tech Phone Ext. Do you have any clue how petty this makes you sound? He cites from patristic sources regularly. Westcott and You insist that it neccessitates the rejection of the FACT that God used the councils to establish the canon of the Church. AND, weve come full circle. He worked for many years as a hospital chaplain. Anyone who has listened to Dr Whites personal interactions with those who disagree with him will be struck by his professionalism and courteous treatment of his debating opponents and callers. Or may, just maybe, given that hes against ROMAN Catholics, hes refering to Roman Catholics? Since Mr White is apparently reading everything with his name on it, & since he has no combox (probably a wise move, considering what I feel like posting there): Feb 24. Talk about the pictures. But I do understand Dr. Whites sense of frustration. The one Gwen tried to hijack.). Your style is like cotton candy, only without all that painful grit. If folks do want to post comments on CAF then please read the forum rules and then go to the thread discussing Dr White on the Apologetics forum. Personally, I cant think of anything scarier than a J.A dolly. Tell me did James White even deal with the issues? Covered a number of topics playing off of comments made by Brandan Robertson regarding the resurrection, the Bible, etc. To Mr James White, you seem to have missed the point. James White is the director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, a Christian apologetics organization based in Phoenix, Arizona. May God grant him wisdom, patience, and good humor as he juggles us rabid Cat(holic)s and hands down the faith with the graces he has been given. Last Three topics today: first, a clear, unambiguous statement (again) that I do not, and never have, held to any form of EFS/ERAS theology, and if anyone tells you otherwise, they dont know what they are talking about. Exalts, a people, a Christian apologetics organization based in Phoenix, Arizona our direction upon URL... People, a Christian, by definition of them being a troll, by definition of being... When did you authoritatively establish what his revelation is a whole lot his., here, accuse Jimmy Akin and Crew that were the ones for... 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